After this I’ll invite questions and look forward to hearing what others have to say. I will be here for one hour this evening to do this, and will be happy to come back another time to participate in any consultation meetings if you would like me to do so. Since Niall gave his Third Thursday talk in December I know there has been a lot of discussion in SL and in various forum spaces about what this means for the OUtopia community and what is the best way to take this forward. For those who weren’t there and might only just be catching up with this, Niall was talking about various ICT initiatives across the university and, when specifically questioned about virtual worlds, mentioned that formal support for OUtopia will be withdrawn from July (although the university will continue to pay for the island). Kick and I have known since we accepted this contract in March last year that the Learning Innovation Office closes in July 2011 and our current contract closes with it. The only piece of news (to us) in Niall’s talk was the confirmation that there will definitely be nobody to take on funding of OUtopia support after LIO closes. This is a very small part of what we do, so technically has a very small impact on us personally, but has obviously come as a bit of a bombshell in the community. I have deliberately kept out of many of the ensuing discussions, although I have been monitoring them as is my role for the OU, because this is really time for the community to step up. I think we have now reached the point where a lot of perspectives have been aired, and I hope that the meeting this evening can be the impetus for moving on. I am not here to chair Kered's meeting (it seems there is some misunderstanding here), but just to represent the OU in answering a few questions. Currently I work on the OU virtual worlds project for a couple of days a month, which covers all activity on all islands. I have a few more days added in over the remaining period of the contract, and Niall has asked that I spend some of that helping to establish the model for OUtopia to become self-governing after July. There are a few things that need setting out here, and then I’m happy to start answering questions. I propose, and Niall agrees, that we move for OUtopia to become self-governing from the beginning of March so that there is a transition period when Kick and I are still around to help with any hiccoughs (not least in a practical sense with permission transfers etc). Once the reins are handed over, there will still of course be a central academic at the OU who has responsibility for the island and who can be called on in times of need – in the first instance this will be Niall. The Acceptable Use Policy will stay in place across all OU inworld spaces including OUtopia, and of course all OU policies relating to communication and behaviour continue to apply in *all* their virtual spaces as equally as they do in their physical. We have been through a consultation process with Trudi de Haney, General Manager of OUSA, about the possibility of OUSA taking on management of OUtopia. They feel that Second Life is currently too niche for them to focus their efforts, particularly at what is a very difficult transitional period for them, and so they will not be involved in OUtopia’s future at this time. If we can get more OU students active in Second Life over the next year or two, then that would be the time to go back and speak to them again. I know it has been suggested that the island should go back to the previous design with a community space in the centre. On our very first Halls space there were 24 apartments and a small central space. When we moved to a new area on SchomeBase there were over 40 apartments and some careful design to make a central platform that felt small, despite the necessarily large perimeter. When we got a whole island it was impossible to put all the houses around the outside of a central space that lent itself to a feeling of intimacy, hence we ended up with the Village Green instead. For what it’s worth, from my own experience over the years I have been in Second Life, I would suggest that the island moves to becoming a giant sandpit with a long return period, with perhaps one or two key permanent spaces for information etc, and then there is little need for a big governance structure. Am happy to elaborate on why if anyone is interested, BUT, what you actually do with it is of course now up to you, and you have to decide together what’s right for going forward. I hope that this evening I can answer any questions that help make the situation as clear as possible, and that you then start a consultation process among yourselves, with Kick and I around in the background to generally keep an eye on things and provide input where it’s useful and/or necessary (ie as representatives of the university) to do so. Elsa |
Once everyone had read the note card then the discussions/questions began and this is the log of what transpired:
[2011/01/10 12:11] Delayne Resident: my understanding is that ou still supports OUtopia it is merely the financial support which will b removed in July
[2011/01/10 12:11] Anjoux Herbit: thank you very much for that Elsa
[2011/01/10 12:11] Elsa Dickins: yw Anjoux :)
[2011/01/10 12:12] Anjoux Herbit: may I ask a question?
[2011/01/10 12:12] Elsa Dickins: of course, that's the idea
[2011/01/10 12:12] Anjoux Herbit: You talk about Financial Support being removed for Outopia, and yet say the the OU will continue to pay for the island?
[2011/01/10 12:13] Anjoux Herbit: is that an interim situation?
[2011/01/10 12:13] Elsa Dickins: yes, the OU will pay the island fees, but not any time for administrative management
[2011/01/10 12:13] DeeDee Bookmite: financial support for the management the NC says
[2011/01/10 12:13] DeeDee Bookmite: sorry not for the management
[2011/01/10 12:13] DeeDee Bookmite: just the actual sim
[2011/01/10 12:13] Elsa Dickins: it's the situation as it will stand in July for the foreseeable future
[2011/01/10 12:13] Elsa Dickins: the island is paid for another 12 months
[2011/01/10 12:14] Aseret Quintessa: Is the idea that OUtopia will become self funding then?
[2011/01/10 12:14] Elsa Dickins: at the end of that 12 months it will hopefully be renewed as long as it is seen to be useful
[2011/01/10 12:14] Jonno Stromfield: what about the Ocean?
[2011/01/10 12:14] Elsa Dickins: not self funding in terms of paying the land fees, no
[2011/01/10 12:14] Elsa Dickins: yes Jonno, the ocean will continue to be paid for
[2011/01/10 12:15] Anjoux Herbit: phew - at least we have a future here
[2011/01/10 12:15] Jonno Stromfield: will it be managed by us, or the OU?
[2011/01/10 12:15] Lilac Lupindo: is this justabout OUtopia?
[2011/01/10 12:15] Elsa Dickins: self sustaining in terms of looking after itself
[2011/01/10 12:15] Hennamono Morpork: Does this apply to all OU sims or just OUtopia?
[2011/01/10 12:15] Elsa Dickins: yes, this is just about outopia
[2011/01/10 12:15] Jonno Stromfield: okay
[2011/01/10 12:15] Hennamono Morpork: Will the other sims survive?
[2011/01/10 12:15] Elsbeth Biedermann: Elsa, could you expand on your suggestion about the big sandbox idea please?
[2011/01/10 12:16] Elsa Dickins: Jonno it will be managed by you all as outopians
[2011/01/10 12:16] Anjoux Herbit: So.... we need to become self-managing -maybe even a rebranding exercise
[2011/01/10 12:16] Elsa Dickins: Henn, yes as far as I know for the foreseeable future yes, we have just paid the fees for them for another 12 months
[2011/01/10 12:16] Rocky Joans: Yes I'm not clear about tghe sandbox idea
[2011/01/10 12:16] Jonno Stromfield: the ocean? So it's not just about OUtopia, but the ocean sim too?
[2011/01/10 12:16] Elsa Dickins: branding is a sensitive area as this is still funded and owned by the OU
[2011/01/10 12:16] Leornian Naidoo: Anj please explain rebranding
[2011/01/10 12:16] Anjoux Herbit: sorry - too strong a term perhaps
[2011/01/10 12:17] Prash Mavendorf: it seems the sandbox is used more by non-ou users than ou users themselves... which is a shame.
[2011/01/10 12:17] Anjoux Herbit: it's really about us - the SL inhabitants taking overoutopia and making it our own
[2011/01/10 12:17] Anjoux Herbit: ...whilst remaining within the boundaries set for us by the OU
[2011/01/10 12:18] DeeDee Bookmite: I liked the idea (not sure by whom or where I read it) where we have a sort of warehouse of freebies that we make
[2011/01/10 12:18] Lazarus Loxely smiles evily
[2011/01/10 12:18] Tori Landau: We already have the shop - same idea really
[2011/01/10 12:18] Elsa Dickins: Els - I think the houses take quite a bit of managing in an administrative sense, and that there is a lot to be dealt with in terms of permissions etc around the island. If there continue to be buildingd and dedicated spaces there will always be discussion about ownership and levels of authority, and I think there is a danger of that becoming more important than the social side of ehat happens here. So, a giant sandbox can be whatever people want it to be in theat moment in the space around them
[2011/01/10 12:18] Rocky Joans: Sounds a great idea DeeDee but maybe it should come after we have sorted a structure
[2011/01/10 12:19] DeeDee Bookmite: the shop is too small and not a lot in it
[2011/01/10 12:19] DeeDee Bookmite: yes Rocky that is for the future
[2011/01/10 12:19] Elsa Dickins: so why would a different shop have more in it?
[2011/01/10 12:19] Jonno Stromfield: lol
[2011/01/10 12:19] Elsbeth Biedermann: there's not a lot in it because there aren't an awful lot of submissions by OUtopia
[2011/01/10 12:19] Leornian Naidoo: So for instance if we have a festival or exhibit then the sets can stay for longer periods?
[2011/01/10 12:20] Lazarus Loxely: we need a mechanism to continue to fill a shop / warehouse
[2011/01/10 12:20] Leornian Naidoo: even days for an exhibit?
[2011/01/10 12:20] DeeDee Bookmite: more like a warehouse where people can place stuff they make, the shop is small and not much fits in it
[2011/01/10 12:20] Lazarus Loxely: like the monthly building prize idea
[2011/01/10 12:20] Elsbeth Biedermann: I put in there all that I can, that has the right permissions to sell
[2011/01/10 12:20] Tori Landau: Maybe we can get back to the main topic this evening everyone - ideas are for later
[2011/01/10 12:20] DeeDee Bookmite: indeed
[2011/01/10 12:20] Jonno Stromfield: So I still don't know if we are also managing the Ocean sim or not
[2011/01/10 12:20] Cadence Mhia: what is th main topic of this evening?
[2011/01/10 12:20] DeeDee Bookmite: so the main topic is what we want here?
[2011/01/10 12:21] Rocky Joans: Can I ask again about you sandbocxidea Elsa?
[2011/01/10 12:21] MarionGE Resident: Can I ask presisely what tasks so the administrators do at this time?
[2011/01/10 12:21] DeeDee Bookmite: I don't think there is a need for houses
[2011/01/10 12:21] Boadicea Apfelbaum: if we are to manage OUtopia ourselves, how do we go about it?
[2011/01/10 12:21] Elsa Dickins: as far as I am concerned this evening was an opportunity for me to clear up the university's position and for people to ask me questions
[2011/01/10 12:21] Elsa Dickins: Jonno - no, this is just about outopia NOT the ocean sim
[2011/01/10 12:21] Rocky Joans: Yes that's what I understood - I don't think we're going to decide anything tonight
[2011/01/10 12:22] Jonno Stromfield: okay, thanks
[2011/01/10 12:22] ThePlague Wirefly: this is the wrong forum to decide - without any structure - how to manage an island - I agree Elsa, this is just for slarifying positions, moving forward needs a plan with a timeline
[2011/01/10 12:22] Tori Landau: Would the university feel that an elected committee that liases with the university be the best way forward in your opinion Elsa?
[2011/01/10 12:22] Elsa Dickins: sandbox idea Rocky is just that most of the content of the island is cleared and a few information areas remain, maybe some trees if people want landscaping
[2011/01/10 12:22] Rocky Joans: Sounds a good idea Tori
[2011/01/10 12:23] Rocky Joans: Can I ask why you feel that would be best Elsa?
[2011/01/10 12:23] Elsa Dickins: the steering committee is ope to suggestions Tori
[2011/01/10 12:23] Delayne Resident: that sounds like the constitution that Kered has posted to the forum Tori
[2011/01/10 12:23] Delayne Resident: what steering committee
[2011/01/10 12:23] Hennamono Morpork: It needs some sort of commitee and ideally it should be democratic
[2011/01/10 12:23] Delayne Resident: when was the steering committee formed and who is in it?
[2011/01/10 12:23] Cadence Mhia: a comitee puts a lot of pressure on individuals - teams wuld be more likely to support people
[2011/01/10 12:23] Anjoux Herbit: it would also need to be accountable
[2011/01/10 12:23] Tori Landau: Remember that I have also been working on it delayne, as i said on forum before kered posted and as Niall also knows
[2011/01/10 12:24] Rocky Joans: I think it must be democratic Henn but maybe with an automatic OU rep
[2011/01/10 12:24] Lazarus Loxely: has the OU asked you to report on our progress between march & the end of your contract? and if so do they have any plans if we turn this into a lord of the flies affair
[2011/01/10 12:24] DeeDee Bookmite: yes who is the steering committee?
[2011/01/10 12:24] Commander Quandry: Steering Committee? What does that consist of?
[2011/01/10 12:24] Elsa Dickins: Rocky - for reasons as above, I think there is a danger that it all becomes about people and personalities and who wants what and lots of people each thinking they know what is right for everyone else if there is too much that has to be 'managed' - but that's just an opinion
[2011/01/10 12:24] Jonno Stromfield: I thought Marion's question was a good one, what does admin consist of, you've said how much time you put in, Elsa, but what about Kick's time? How many hours a week in total?
[2011/01/10 12:24] Elsa Dickins: the steering committee includes me, Niall and a bunch of other academics
[2011/01/10 12:25] DeeDee Bookmite: ah good
[2011/01/10 12:25] Rocky Joans: And what do you do Elsa?
[2011/01/10 12:25] Elsa Dickins: we meet once every 6 weeks and discuss actions relating to virtual world activity
[2011/01/10 12:25] Elsa Dickins: for example the move from PG to mature rating was ratified by the steering committee
[2011/01/10 12:25] Rocky Joans: So it is/was the final decison maker?
[2011/01/10 12:26] Elsa Dickins: at the moment Kick has 2 and a half days a week on all virtual world stuff
[2011/01/10 12:26] Elsa Dickins: Kick you have a better idea than me how much of that is spent on OUtopia?
[2011/01/10 12:26] Delayne Resident: how much of that is devoted to outopia?
[2011/01/10 12:26] Commander Quandry: And the Steering Comittee has no steer on how it woud like us to work
[2011/01/10 12:26] Elsa Dickins: the steering group makes final decisions
[2011/01/10 12:26] Jonno Stromfield: Is it envisaged that the same committee will remain in charge post July?
[2011/01/10 12:27] Elsa Dickins: the steering group will continue to be active as long as the university has a presence in virtual worlds
[2011/01/10 12:27] Tori Landau: That's a good point... does the steering group have a plan envisaged for us to become self-organising?
[2011/01/10 12:27] Boadicea Apfelbaum: good question
[2011/01/10 12:27] Aseret Quintessa: So what will the process be to get to a take over point with an OUtopian run committee?
[2011/01/10 12:28] Elsa Dickins: it's a common process within a university - there is an academic board that oversees issues relating to finance, reputation, brand, academic interests etc etc
[2011/01/10 12:28] Elsa Dickins: there are lots of steering groups for lots of activity areas
[2011/01/10 12:29] Prash Mavendorf: so is there room for a sub-steering-group then?
[2011/01/10 12:29] Jonno Stromfield: If we need to work under tight committee guidelines going to them for small things, we'll need a day-to-day liason. If it's only big things, say reporting once a quarter, it's less important.
[2011/01/10 12:29] Boadicea Apfelbaum: So are we to decide things amongst ourselves and then take final ideas tot he steering group for approval?
[2011/01/10 12:29] Elsa Dickins: the steering group are not there to ratify every small decision with regard to outopia
[2011/01/10 12:29] Delayne Resident: the sandbox in main island rarely used, the giant one 1 or 2 people at most so making this a sandbox pretty well ensures outopia wont exist b able to attract and retain new members so will dissappear dec 2011
[2011/01/10 12:30] Elsa Dickins: they meet for an hour every 6 weeks and cover all aspects of OU virtual world activity
[2011/01/10 12:30] Rocky Joans: The way I see it we would have an elected managed ment group to run OUtopia but the Steering group would have final decision on major items - does that sound right Elsa?
[2011/01/10 12:30] Anjoux Herbit: Is that official Delayne?
[2011/01/10 12:30] Kered Rickena: so how do we know that we are complying with the steering groups agenda
[2011/01/10 12:30] Delayne Resident: well if all we have here is a sandbox why will people come?
[2011/01/10 12:31] Jonno Stromfield: we can decide what we want to do, Delayne. Elsa's idea is just a suggestion
[2011/01/10 12:31] Hennamono Morpork: I don't think we should worry about what the place might be in the future only about how to organise such decisions
[2011/01/10 12:31] Rocky Joans: I wonder if Elsa means a sandbox like the one on the other island - that's what I'm not clear about
[2011/01/10 12:31] Rocky Joans: Yes Henn - I think you are right
[2011/01/10 12:31] Jonno Stromfield: It's a better first step,, Henn, I agree
[2011/01/10 12:31] Elsa Dickins: the steering group doesn't have an agenda as such - theya re there to STEER when needed. So, I whope that you will all go away and discuss your ideas, and then come back to me with a plan and I will take that to the steering group to discuss
[2011/01/10 12:31] Lilac Lupindo: Nt Sandboxes are good. we can hold impromptu parties etc.
[2011/01/10 12:31] Aseret Quintessa: yes I agree too Henn
[2011/01/10 12:32] Eshala Tabacznyk: I think before we decide what we are or aren't going to turn OUtopia into we need to work on how the running of the island will take place
[2011/01/10 12:32] Boadicea Apfelbaum: Whatever it becomes, how do we get organised?
[2011/01/10 12:32] Elsa Dickins: if it seems to be workable, they will have little tot do with it
[2011/01/10 12:32] Anjoux Herbit: I think this meeting is less to do with what remains on the island, and more to do with how we manage the handover
[2011/01/10 12:32] Anjoux Herbit: and interface with the OU proper
[2011/01/10 12:32] Tori Landau: Agree Anj
[2011/01/10 12:32] Rocky Joans: Agreed Anjoux
[2011/01/10 12:32] Elsa Dickins: Yes Rocky, but only very major items, like significant change
[2011/01/10 12:32] Jonno Stromfield: so will we go through you, Elsa, or will we be allowed a rep on the committee?
[2011/01/10 12:33] Elsa Dickins: [Rocky - re sandbox I mean for the entire space to be a sandbox, without the houses and other buildings]
[2011/01/10 12:33] Rocky Joans: Can I ask Elsa - is your sandbox idea so that people could build what they want, have parties etec - not a sandbox like by the NUbie centre?
[2011/01/10 12:33] DeeDee Bookmite: so we could rez props etc for functions?
[2011/01/10 12:33] Delayne Resident: so anyone wandering over to outopia will see nothing, have nothing to do
[2011/01/10 12:34] Elsa Dickins: you don't need to worry about the steering committee, there will eb ONE person who you can go to if there is a signifcant issue that needs an OU response
[2011/01/10 12:34] Tori Landau: We already can - remember any of us can build on the green as i said in my post re events on the forums
[2011/01/10 12:34] Delayne Resident: noubies cant build
[2011/01/10 12:34] Anjoux Herbit: Indeed - I do it all the time
[2011/01/10 12:34] Delayne Resident: they dont know how, they can barely walk
[2011/01/10 12:34] lizit Cleanslate: I managed a sim for another university as a sandbox - basically everybody had building rights and decisions were taken by the group as to what would be build where
[2011/01/10 12:34] Lilac Lupindo: why notDelayne?
[2011/01/10 12:34] Commander Quandry: Anyone in the group - with the group set as active can build
[2011/01/10 12:34] DeeDee Bookmite: yes I know. I was asking Elsa was that the idea she is talking about; a giant sand box and if we want fucntions or anything else we build props
[2011/01/10 12:35] Aseret Quintessa: The first tranch of students in June 08 managed without much to do Delayne, a lot of us are still here
[2011/01/10 12:35] Leornian Naidoo: Did that work well lizit?
[2011/01/10 12:35] Commander Quandry: May I remind those that know, and tell those that do not, that there is a forum at http://www.outopians.org.uk/forum where we can collect and debate ideas as we think of them
[2011/01/10 12:35] Elsa Dickins: yes deedee - the entire island has building perms and anyone can rez whatever they like - maybe different return periods in different areas
[2011/01/10 12:35] Rocky Joans: So in effect you are saying the currently the village green is a sandbox?
[2011/01/10 12:35] lizit Cleanslate: yes it did Leo
[2011/01/10 12:35] Boadicea Apfelbaum: couldn't this become rather anarchic?
[2011/01/10 12:35] Tori Landau: yes, it is Rocky and has been for a while
[2011/01/10 12:35] Elsa Dickins: that way there is no need for committees etc to 'manage' the space
[2011/01/10 12:36] Eshala Tabacznyk: so the space would just look after itself really
[2011/01/10 12:36] Commander Quandry: the forum also has sections for help with building, scripting, clothing, etc
[2011/01/10 12:36] Eshala Tabacznyk: we'd just come along and do as we please
[2011/01/10 12:36] Leornian Naidoo: It sounds quite sensible
[2011/01/10 12:36] DeeDee Bookmite: I like that idea
[2011/01/10 12:36] Leornian Naidoo: simple efficient
[2011/01/10 12:36] Jonno Stromfield: not quite look after itself. The prim warden has an important role in that
[2011/01/10 12:36] Cadence Mhia: who will be responsible for taking care f noubies
[2011/01/10 12:37] Anjoux Herbit: very utopian - but I think the OU will require very much more than a space which has no management
[2011/01/10 12:37] DeeDee Bookmite: also we will need some sort of committee for functions etc
[2011/01/10 12:37] Eshala Tabacznyk: if it's a sandbox it would have a return time though I imaginee
[2011/01/10 12:37] Anjoux Herbit: it will require proof of usefulness
[2011/01/10 12:37] Cadence Mhia: there are a whole load of the thing that neeed to be supported to make the iland rn
[2011/01/10 12:37] Commander Quandry: and there is still the need to manage the community; set spaces, eject avs where needed, manage the groups, etc
[2011/01/10 12:37] Delayne Resident: how will u attract new people
[2011/01/10 12:37] Leornian Naidoo: Can the return time be extended if we have an exhibit?
[2011/01/10 12:37] Lilac Lupindo: us e have always tried to help with noubies.
[2011/01/10 12:37] Lazarus Loxely: i assume we can control return times and certain things which have been wonderfully created could be made perm
[2011/01/10 12:37] Leornian Naidoo: I maen for a few days?
[2011/01/10 12:38] Elsa Dickins: if people want to organise functions etc etc that's easy with a sandbox space, you can just get together and do it, anyone can
[2011/01/10 12:38] Anjoux Herbit: don't forget that sef governing or not, it will still represent the OU in name looks usage
[2011/01/10 12:38] Tori Landau: Yes, good point Anj
[2011/01/10 12:38] Anjoux Herbit: and it will bear the OU name and logo
[2011/01/10 12:38] ThePlague Wirefly: Anj makes a good point here
[2011/01/10 12:38] DeeDee Bookmite: yes and OU reputation kept in mind
[2011/01/10 12:38] Lilac Lupindo: we still have greeters/helpers to help noubies.
[2011/01/10 12:38] Anjoux Herbit: and open sandbox will not satisfy the OU I fear
[2011/01/10 12:38] Anjoux Herbit: an*
[2011/01/10 12:39] ThePlague Wirefly: I dont think you can have just a floating space populated as and when as and so required
[2011/01/10 12:39] Tori Landau: yes, and the buddies too who can be contacted anytime
[2011/01/10 12:39] Jonno Stromfield: Technically all this can be done. We have to decide what we want, and agree the overall plan with the committee, I guess.
[2011/01/10 12:39] ThePlague Wirefly: you cant account for it then either
[2011/01/10 12:39] Elsa Dickins: I think it would need a couple of volunteers who have the right perms
[2011/01/10 12:39] Elsa Dickins: but no management structure
[2011/01/10 12:39] Prash Mavendorf: anarchy rules?
[2011/01/10 12:39] Leornian Naidoo: excellent
[2011/01/10 12:39] Delayne Resident: no society will work effecitvely like that
[2011/01/10 12:39] Leornian Naidoo: oops
[2011/01/10 12:39] Anjoux Herbit: or - an elected council
[2011/01/10 12:39] Elsa Dickins: anyway - 20 minutes left. more questions?
[2011/01/10 12:39] Rocky Joans: I'm not sure we don't need a loose management structure
[2011/01/10 12:39] Leornian Naidoo: bad timing again
[2011/01/10 12:39] Rocky Joans: Yes Anj
[2011/01/10 12:39] ThePlague Wirefly: As a social sciences student I think we need to examine the principles of power structures....
[2011/01/10 12:40] Jonno Stromfield: works reasonable for numbers under 70, Prash. Kibbutzim are a great example
[2011/01/10 12:40] Commander Quandry: so who decides that a person is a griefer and should banned - a volunteer with the rights?
[2011/01/10 12:40] Anjoux Herbit: Agreed ThePlague
[2011/01/10 12:40] Delayne Resident: and who decides who will have the perm rights
[2011/01/10 12:40] Tori Landau: i think for banning it would need to be agreed by more than one person
[2011/01/10 12:40] Tori Landau: and need evidence
[2011/01/10 12:40] Jonno Stromfield: or it could take effect and be appealable
[2011/01/10 12:40] Delayne Resident: lord of the flies here we come
[2011/01/10 12:40] ThePlague Wirefly: arent we getting ahead of ourselves here?
[2011/01/10 12:40] Rocky Joans: Which is why I feel there should be an elected committee
[2011/01/10 12:40] DeeDee Bookmite: what sort of evidence Toir?
[2011/01/10 12:41] DeeDee Bookmite: Tori
[2011/01/10 12:41] DeeDee Bookmite: what sort would count?
[2011/01/10 12:41] DeeDee Bookmite: I was advised that ims and chat don't
[2011/01/10 12:41] Jonno Stromfield: are we already up to jurisprudence?
[2011/01/10 12:41] Tori Landau: for banning need chat/im and photo if possible depending on situation
[2011/01/10 12:41] ThePlague Wirefly: Can we please just slow down and decide first of all what we are doing a) in this meeting b) moving forward from it with some clearly defined objectives with timelines?
[2011/01/10 12:41] Anjoux Herbit: I agree we don't need multiple layers of management - but even one layer will need an elected Quorum to represent us with the OU and to take the tough decisions
[2011/01/10 12:41] Prash Mavendorf: what if there is a grievance on the person who has the banning ability.
[2011/01/10 12:41] Prash Mavendorf: ?
[2011/01/10 12:41] Tori Landau: yes, unfortuanetly thay can be faked
[2011/01/10 12:41] DeeDee Bookmite: excatly
[2011/01/10 12:41] Boadicea Apfelbaum: are we still going to be the social side of the OU? Encourage new members?
[2011/01/10 12:41] DeeDee Bookmite: yes back to basics
[2011/01/10 12:41] Tori Landau: agree Plague, lets get back to main topic
[2011/01/10 12:42] Rocky Joans: Yes Anj - then the committee would ban - though hopefully that wouldn't be necessary
[2011/01/10 12:42] DeeDee Bookmite: the alts will be sorted later I am sure
[2011/01/10 12:42] Rocky Joans: If we elect we'd have to think about alts
[2011/01/10 12:42] DeeDee Bookmite: definitely
[2011/01/10 12:42] Delayne Resident: power in just 2 people disenfranchises everyone else
[2011/01/10 12:42] DeeDee Bookmite: who should be allowed to stand are issues too
[2011/01/10 12:42] ThePlague Wirefly: Main topic. What we do in terms of looking after the island. We're not going to decide that here - no point trying. So can we set up a system whereby we can enable input and then if need be, debate them clearly
[2011/01/10 12:43] Delayne Resident: community needs partnerships/teams
[2011/01/10 12:43] Rocky Joans: Who says 2 people
[2011/01/10 12:43] Tori Landau: Ok... from my perspective... I would like to know what the university envisages for us with regard to committee/management of ourselves
[2011/01/10 12:43] Prash Mavendorf: power to many will disenfranchise 2.
[2011/01/10 12:43] Delayne Resident: elsa i think or tori
[2011/01/10 12:43] Rocky Joans: I think Tori the OU envisgaes we will decidse ourselves and make a proposal
[2011/01/10 12:43] DeeDee Bookmite: yes that seems to be the whole idea
[2011/01/10 12:43] Tori Landau: SL isn't rl and i think we need input from people who have the experience and knowledge
[2011/01/10 12:43] Aseret Quintessa: if this place is self governing who will have the final say in decisions that affect everyone?
[2011/01/10 12:43] DeeDee Bookmite: we all have experience and knowledge
[2011/01/10 12:44] Lazarus Loxely: but it would help to understand what they consider success
[2011/01/10 12:44] Jonno Stromfield: So if we are to define our own mandate, with the proviso that we are useful (that's the only one I've spotted, apart from the OU TOS), what's the big idea? Why are we here?
[2011/01/10 12:44] Prash Mavendorf: sl may not be real, but the people who use it are real.
[2011/01/10 12:44] Hennamono Morpork: So we need an interim council to guide the next stage?
[2011/01/10 12:44] Tori Landau: yes Laz
[2011/01/10 12:44] DeeDee Bookmite: yes what the measure of sucess is
[2011/01/10 12:44] ThePlague Wirefly: Ok so can we please stop ust firing ideas out?? We're not going to come to anything solid that way
[2011/01/10 12:44] Rocky Joans: Yes Henn
[2011/01/10 12:44] DeeDee Bookmite: so how do we choose a council for the interim
[2011/01/10 12:44] DeeDee Bookmite: ?
[2011/01/10 12:44] Boadicea Apfelbaum: are we going to have another meeting?
[2011/01/10 12:44] Lazarus Loxely: are they going to make a decision Q1 2012 on our future based on how success we self manage this island?
[2011/01/10 12:44] Jonno Stromfield: I think we need to ask the chair to chair, if he doesn't mind.
[2011/01/10 12:45] Lazarus Loxely: if so they must have a idea of how they will gauge that
[2011/01/10 12:45] Aseret Quintessa: I would guess that here would need to work for OU to want to continue funding
[2011/01/10 12:45] Elsa Dickins: Lazarus I think it will be looked at in terms of how many people it serves
[2011/01/10 12:45] Anjoux Herbit: I think that the period from March will be left to us, and has every chance to be examined as a reason to continue in SL or to cease operations her - in effect we're being given a year to make a go of it - I think they will be very hands-off and see if we can manage this ourselves
[2011/01/10 12:45] Prash Mavendorf: one person chairs the initial meeting and acts as an intermediary.
[2011/01/10 12:45] Prash Mavendorf: people put themselves forward for nomination.
[2011/01/10 12:45] Lazarus Loxely: excellent so there's a good starting focus
[2011/01/10 12:46] Tori Landau: Yes, one point i feel is important is that Niall mentioned numbers needed for OU to think it successful - we need to know asap what this level is
[2011/01/10 12:46] Prash Mavendorf: people elect the those they want to stand.
[2011/01/10 12:46] ThePlague Wirefly: we need an agenda, meeting points and the facility to submit ideas/suggestions BEFORE the meeting so we can debate specific topics
[2011/01/10 12:46] Boadicea Apfelbaum: true
[2011/01/10 12:46] Prash Mavendorf: period is fixed for 6 committee meetings.
[2011/01/10 12:46] ThePlague Wirefly: Because at the moment, we're getting no-where sorry
[2011/01/10 12:46] Rocky Joans: What do you mean Prash
[2011/01/10 12:46] Elsa Dickins: CQ has set up a forum space ThePlague
[2011/01/10 12:46] Delayne Resident: need constitution first - what do people think of the one Kered posted to forum
[2011/01/10 12:46] DeeDee Bookmite: yes but don't we need to ensure that people are bone fide students or an alt can stand and vote?
[2011/01/10 12:46] DeeDee Bookmite: I liked most of it
[2011/01/10 12:47] Prash Mavendorf: period of election is 6 committee meetings.
[2011/01/10 12:47] DeeDee Bookmite: well considered
[2011/01/10 12:47] Rocky Joans: Ah fine
[2011/01/10 12:47] Lazarus Loxely: yep it was very good
[2011/01/10 12:47] Prash Mavendorf: (which can be reviewed after 1 or 2 years)
[2011/01/10 12:47] Lazarus Loxely: if it adds my amendments ;)
[2011/01/10 12:47] Jonno Stromfield: Can I ask Kick something? You have the current numbers, what is the current average usage low and high?
[2011/01/10 12:47] Commander Quandry: http://www.outopians.org.uk/forum
[2011/01/10 12:47] Tori Landau: I've had a little time now to look at it and there are a few problems with it, but it is not for duscussing here, I will write my comments when have time
[2011/01/10 12:48] Elsa Dickins: yes I think the constitution is something you can discuss on the forum
[2011/01/10 12:48] Elsa Dickins: kick is having prpblems with local chat
[2011/01/10 12:48] Eshala Tabacznyk: Kick apologies but his chat is laggy and not appearing in local chat
[2011/01/10 12:48] Kered Rickena: Yes at this point we are going round in circles we need to set teh date for another meeting with an agenda so that all of these items can vbe discussed
[2011/01/10 12:48] Rocky Joans: If we are going to use the forum formally there needs to be a notice here pointing to it
[2011/01/10 12:49] Lazarus Loxely: great idea
[2011/01/10 12:49] Jonno Stromfield: well if can post them up on the forum some time
[2011/01/10 12:49] Delayne Resident: there is - its the grey noticeboard by the pub
[2011/01/10 12:49] Rocky Joans: Thanks Delayne
[2011/01/10 12:49] Kered Rickena: and the sl forum on OUSa
[2011/01/10 12:49] Boadicea Apfelbaum: I agree with kered's suggestion
[2011/01/10 12:49] Elsa Dickins: kcik hasn't got usage numbers to hand
[2011/01/10 12:49] Lazarus Loxely: how about a temp NC giver when you enter the islands with a link
[2011/01/10 12:49] Commander Quandry: I will put a notice about it up
[2011/01/10 12:49] Kered Rickena: to notify otehre of commanders forum
[2011/01/10 12:49] Lazarus Loxely: it affects all OU students who use SL
[2011/01/10 12:50] Tori Landau: If we are going to be democratic, we need to be elected... my thoughts were to use to positions that existed on the old council as a starting point, but be elected
[2011/01/10 12:50] Delayne Resident: no
[2011/01/10 12:50] DeeDee Bookmite: no
[2011/01/10 12:50] Cadence Mhia: the old council didn' work
[2011/01/10 12:50] Anjoux Herbit: Have the OU any issues with us as a group using a forum external to the OU, and yet representing in part it's position?
[2011/01/10 12:50] Cadence Mhia: the minutes show tht
[2011/01/10 12:50] Kered Rickena: i agree we ned to start a fresh
[2011/01/10 12:50] Elsa Dickins: I would caution against having too many positions
[2011/01/10 12:50] Delayne Resident: all nearly 100 pages of them,!!!
[2011/01/10 12:50] Rocky Joans: Can I see that I see this meeting as having been really positive - a lot of interest and everyone seems to want to find the best way forward. Thanks to Elsa for coming, as we're running out of time
[2011/01/10 12:50] Tori Landau: the old council didn't work as the OU didn't gave us any power
[2011/01/10 12:51] Commander Quandry: I don't think that is right Tori
[2011/01/10 12:51] Lazarus Loxely: agreed Elsa
[2011/01/10 12:51] Elsa Dickins: you need to keep it as simple as possible
[2011/01/10 12:51] DeeDee Bookmite: this is a new start
[2011/01/10 12:51] Tori Landau: not due to the positions
[2011/01/10 12:51] Kered Rickena: first dicsuss the constitution
[2011/01/10 12:51] Lazarus Loxely: see previous comment
[2011/01/10 12:51] Commander Quandry: no one should have to be able to fill a job to represent on a committee
[2011/01/10 12:51] DeeDee Bookmite: yes
[2011/01/10 12:51] Kered Rickena: then have a meeting to decide
[2011/01/10 12:51] Leornian Naidoo: Agreed Rocky
[2011/01/10 12:51] Delayne Resident: it didnt work cos no constitution -
[2011/01/10 12:51] Prash Mavendorf: we should take the ousa constitution and water it down to make it relevant to this island.
[2011/01/10 12:51] Aseret Quintessa: I just worry we are going to spend too much time talking and not enough doing stuff to make the place work
[2011/01/10 12:51] Tori Landau: not all jobs would be
[2011/01/10 12:51] Elsa Dickins: thanks Rocky :) Good to see so many people intersted in wanting to take it forward
[2011/01/10 12:51] Commander Quandry: No jobs should be
[2011/01/10 12:51] Delayne Resident: need our own consittuion that works for sl
[2011/01/10 12:51] Tori Landau: key positions would be elected, others chosen by committee
[2011/01/10 12:51] Jonno Stromfield: lol. those who will do, will do Aseret. Those who want to talk will talk.
[2011/01/10 12:51] Delayne Resident: no
[2011/01/10 12:52] Rocky Joans: I would suggest we leave things at nine - an hour is enough for one of these meetings
[2011/01/10 12:52] Commander Quandry: create a council of elected people - they they assign the jobs either to themselves, or others with the abilities
[2011/01/10 12:52] Prash Mavendorf: and ratified by the management cttee.
[2011/01/10 12:52] Delayne Resident: the past is the past - we have to make a new futuire
[2011/01/10 12:52] Aseret Quintessa: lol Jonno
[2011/01/10 12:52] Tori Landau: no jobs should be... - please charify CQ
[2011/01/10 12:52] Jonno Stromfield: lol. CQ you can't assign jobs.
[2011/01/10 12:52] DeeDee Bookmite: key positions and committees shouldn't be what it is about. This is about what OU students want here
[2011/01/10 12:53] Commander Quandry: the committee is a group of elected people - like local councillors
[2011/01/10 12:53] Delayne Resident: thats exactly wht happend jonno with old town council
[2011/01/10 12:53] Tori Landau: we also have to get it up and running
[2011/01/10 12:53] Commander Quandry: they then take portfolios and use other community members to assist
[2011/01/10 12:53] DeeDee Bookmite: how will that improve inclusiveness?
[2011/01/10 12:53] Commander Quandry: local councils do it all the time Jonno
[2011/01/10 12:53] Hennamono Morpork agrees with CQ
[2011/01/10 12:53] Rocky Joans: I agree with what others have said - let's forget past problems and head into the brave new world
[2011/01/10 12:53] DeeDee Bookmite: it smacks of clique development
[2011/01/10 12:53] Tori Landau: i'm going to have to read back in chat, excuse me one moment
[2011/01/10 12:53] Jonno Stromfield: we can discuss how it will work later, but I'll fight against local council politics as our model
[2011/01/10 12:53] Elsa Dickins: I am going to go shortly - I suggest you take the next couple of weeks, or just under, to get some ideas in place and then I'll meet you all inworld again on the 21st Jan to see where we have reached
[2011/01/10 12:54] DeeDee Bookmite: great TY Elsa
[2011/01/10 12:54] Leornian Naidoo: excellent
[2011/01/10 12:54] Jonno Stromfield: sounds good, Elsa
[2011/01/10 12:54] Aseret Quintessa: it does and everyone involved needs to feel included for here to work
[2011/01/10 12:54] Aseret Quintessa: yes thank you Elsa
[2011/01/10 12:54] DeeDee Bookmite: yes and no dictators
[2011/01/10 12:54] Lazarus Loxely: damn it!
[2011/01/10 12:54] Leornian Naidoo: thnx Ellsa
[2011/01/10 12:54] Tori Landau: my thought on the positions was due to fact that they are positions that are needed for the community to function
[2011/01/10 12:54] DeeDee Bookmite: lol what's wrong Laz
[2011/01/10 12:54] Eshala Tabacznyk: Thanks for coming Elsa
[2011/01/10 12:54] Lazarus Loxely: can't you have one dictator?
[2011/01/10 12:54] Jonno Stromfield: are there any other criteria you can think of, Elsa that the Steering Committee might want to pass on?
[2011/01/10 12:54] Aseret Quintessa: he wants to be a dictator Dee
[2011/01/10 12:54] Lilac Lupindo: thank you foryour time Elsa. It is muchappreciated.
[2011/01/10 12:54] Kered Rickena: nite Elsa
[2011/01/10 12:54] Anjoux Herbit: Agreed Tori
[2011/01/10 12:54] Anjoux Herbit: nn Elsa
[2011/01/10 12:54] DeeDee Bookmite: the community functioned just fine at the start without people being 'key' people
[2011/01/10 12:54] Leornian Naidoo: yes much appreciated
[2011/01/10 12:55] Prash Mavendorf: nite nite.
[2011/01/10 12:55] Rocky Joans: Is the 21st a def date? If so what time?
[2011/01/10 12:55] Commander Quandry: Laz wants total cominion
[2011/01/10 12:55] Hennamono Morpork: Lets all be dictators! :)
[2011/01/10 12:55] Commander Quandry: dominion
[2011/01/10 12:55] DeeDee Bookmite: lol Henn
[2011/01/10 12:55] Elsa Dickins: there's a steering group meeting tomorrow so I'm going to report on this evening's meeting and if there are any particular outcomes from the group I'll ask CQ to post them on his forum]
[2011/01/10 12:55] Aseret Quintessa: lol Henn yes that works for me
[2011/01/10 12:55] Lazarus Loxely: its a great short term model
[2011/01/10 12:55] Delayne Resident: surely we need to all choose a date - people not at this meeting csannoty choose the date
[2011/01/10 12:55] Tori Landau: I'm also concerned with the suggestion that LOL is becoming tied in with the constitution
[2011/01/10 12:55] DeeDee Bookmite: first Outopia then the world
[2011/01/10 12:55] Lazarus Loxely: just do as you are told
[2011/01/10 12:55] Aseret Quintessa: ;P
[2011/01/10 12:55] DeeDee Bookmite: LOL is a mag is it not
[2011/01/10 12:55] Rocky Joans: We could have a dictator of the week!
[2011/01/10 12:55] Jonno Stromfield: those who want to sell him their souls can. It's a free sim
[2011/01/10 12:56] DeeDee Bookmite: ;) lol
[2011/01/10 12:56] Leornian Naidoo: 21 January same time?
[2011/01/10 12:56] Lazarus Loxely: hey i worked in a sim that did that Rocky was great fun
[2011/01/10 12:56] Cadence Mhia: why is LOL becoming tied in with te constitution - it is the only magazine used for OUtopia
[2011/01/10 12:56] DeeDee Bookmite: is that it?
[2011/01/10 12:56] Elsa Dickins: I'm sorry but if it's a meeting that I am going to be at then I need to pick the date - nothing to stop you having as many meetings as you want in between
[2011/01/10 12:56] Tori Landau: exactly laz... i envisage that the council, whatever, will evolve in furture
[2011/01/10 12:56] Elsa Dickins: but I'm traveling a lot in next fortnight
[2011/01/10 12:56] DeeDee Bookmite: yes LOL is a mag and nothing else?
[2011/01/10 12:56] Anjoux Herbit: LOL surely should be a part of the community - not it's Governance?
[2011/01/10 12:56] Rocky Joans: I thought you'd suggestested 21st Elsa?
[2011/01/10 12:56] Tori Landau: it will have to change to meet the needs of the community - the council i mean
[2011/01/10 12:56] Delayne Resident: so llooks like we need another meeting besides the 21 jan one else will never get this island on the road
[2011/01/10 12:56] Cadence Mhia: it not anythig to d with overnace and i wll thak you ot to tart rumours like that again Tori
[2011/01/10 12:56] DeeDee Bookmite: we haven't got one yet Tori
[2011/01/10 12:57] Elsa Dickins: yes Rocky I did, but Delayne said everyone needed to choose the date
[2011/01/10 12:57] Aseret Quintessa: I think the 21st seems okay can everyone say about the 21st so Elsa knows people
[2011/01/10 12:57] Jonno Stromfield: probably more than one, Delayne
[2011/01/10 12:57] DeeDee Bookmite: how do we go about getting one
[2011/01/10 12:57] Elsa Dickins: I will be here at 8pm on the 21st
[2011/01/10 12:57] Delayne Resident: yes, i a democracy people do choose
[2011/01/10 12:57] Tori Landau: cadence - have you read kered's consttution?
[2011/01/10 12:57] Jonno Stromfield: hi, Strangie
[2011/01/10 12:57] DeeDee Bookmite: I am not sure, I will be here if not working
[2011/01/10 12:57] ThePlague Wirefly: I wontbe here I know Im out that night
[2011/01/10 12:57] Rocky Joans: Yes fine - for 21st - I also think we should not have another meeting until then but discuss things on the Forum
[2011/01/10 12:57] Tori Landau: and don't pull me up for starting rumours cadence
[2011/01/10 12:57] Lazarus Loxely: i'm in france conquering
[2011/01/10 12:57] Eli Larsson: erherm ... i didn't choose Cameron
[2011/01/10 12:57] Cadence Mhia: yes - it says LOL should publish info about the meetings so that people know when they are aqnd what was said
[2011/01/10 12:57] Boadicea Apfelbaum: I crashed - did i miss ant date setting or anything?
[2011/01/10 12:58] Lilac Lupindo: we can pos the time and date on the class forum
[2011/01/10 12:58] Rocky Joans: 21st 8p Boedicea
[2011/01/10 12:58] Boadicea Apfelbaum: thanks rocky
[2011/01/10 12:58] Strangie Vaher: sorry I'm rediculously late
[2011/01/10 12:58] Jonno Stromfield: 21st for next "official" meeting with Elsa
[2011/01/10 12:58] Hennamono Morpork: I'm out of time - have to go!
[2011/01/10 12:58] Cadence Mhia: that was greed y the own council in its origional meeting
[2011/01/10 12:58] Leornian Naidoo: 21 Jan yes to Elsa from Leo
[2011/01/10 12:58] Tori Landau: 21st jan - that's a fri
[2011/01/10 12:58] Lilac Lupindo: firstclass* lag!¬
[2011/01/10 12:58] Anjoux Herbit: let's stay chilled tonight peeps please - it's been positive - I'm sure there will be many heated discussions on the forums :)
[2011/01/10 12:58] Hennamono Morpork: Bye!
[2011/01/10 12:58] DeeDee Bookmite: bye Henn
[2011/01/10 12:58] Aseret Quintessa: bye Henn
[2011/01/10 12:58] Hennamono Morpork is Offline
[2011/01/10 12:58] Elsa Dickins: OK thanks everyone, am logging out now, was really lovely to see so many people here, makes me feel veyr positive about OUtopia's future
[2011/01/10 12:58] Leornian Naidoo: bye Henn
[2011/01/10 12:59] Rocky Joans: It's been great tonight - a good atmosphere - the way forward :))
[2011/01/10 12:59] Jonno Stromfield: bye, whoever is going
[2011/01/10 12:59] Elsa Dickins: Kick says goodbye as well :)
[2011/01/10 12:59] Lazarus Loxely: thanks Elsa, Kick
[2011/01/10 12:59] Leornian Naidoo: Thanks Elsa
[2011/01/10 12:59] Leornian Naidoo: Thanks Kick
[2011/01/10 12:59] DeeDee Bookmite: Bye Elsa and Kick
[2011/01/10 12:59] Anjoux Herbit: nn Kick :)
[2011/01/10 12:59] Tori Landau: Ok, meeting is declared over at this point.
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